Sorry everyone, I know this stuff is all over the news at the moment but I just needed to vent!
How has the stuff made it through the vote?! And why are these stupid MP's allowed to vote on such major issues??
They've allowed the human/animal embryo thing (I'm from a medical background, and nobody I've spoken to agrees with this). And they've kept the abortion limit at 24 weeks (when, I was told by my sister and my brother-in-law, the babies cry when they come out).
I'm not strictly anti-abortion (because of genetic conditions, things like spina bifida and for rape victims etc), but I'm sorry, if you've not made your mind up by 5 or 6 months, then you need to be told that it's just too bloody late (and if you really don't want the baby, consider adoption or similar). I know all this is very un-pc but I heard someone n the radio say it's part of our 'throw-away' society, and he's right. "Oh, I got pregnant, whoops, oh well, lets just take a pill the next day, or next week or in 3 months or whatever".
When I was pregnant with DD I was 20, at university, 400 miles from home and with no money, no job, and a boyfriend I'd been with for less than 6 months. I considered an abortion, but even then I thought that, to be honest, if you aren't at all able to have a child, you perhaps shouldn't be having sex (maybe that's a bit too Catholic for some, but I can't help feeling that way).
I don't know. Like I said, abortion is neccessary sometimes, and let's face it, outlawing it completely would be a) very unfair and b)stupid, as it would just become a kitchen-table affair like years ago. But 24 weeks? Come on.
Absolutley. I was nearly in tears last night watching the news. The thought of being able to end a life when you can feel the life inside of you, just does not seem right. I think I am becoming much more "conservative" in my views as I get older, but it is as if a childs life is not valued anymore.
If you are undecided at 24 weeks that you would want a termination then something has gone wrong somewhere! And as the human/animal embryo bill, makes you wonder how many people are being payed to vote on it. Or are we being run by a group of people who have no ethics any more?
I couldn't agree more. I would never consider abortion for myself and don't really agree with it unless rape/major disability like Loopylizzie but to be able to feel it moving inside and then do that :'( :'(.
I know what you are all saying but I also know some people don't know they are pregnant for ages. My SIL only figured it out at 20 weeks. There might be very young girls who don't figure it out or are too scared to do anything about it at first. And if a child is unwanted it is not really fair on the child or the expectant mother to force them into birth. Birth can be pretty traumatic in itself and to be born into a family where you are unwanted seems terribly sad. Do we want to go back to a world where young mothers are left to give birth in disgrace, and give away their baby to adoption. Either way abortion/ adoption they will face years of guilt, shame, sadness at the loss. I think there are enough children already born into families who are unwilling/unable to give their 'all' to parenting, not sure we want more. L'il one needs me - must dash ....
I'm in total agreement - human animal embryos are a ridiculous idea and a waste of time and money. I believe it's for stem cell research because there is a shortage of human embryos available (correct me if I'm wrong) Why don;t they spend the time and money investigating the potential of using stem cells from cord blood and breastmilk and all these new discoveries that they've made instead??! Surely there's no shortage of cord blood and breastmilk!
As far as abortion goes - 24 weeks is an awful limit to have. My cousin was born and survived at 25 weeks 20 years ago!!! And why on earth is survivability the only factor here??? What about the baby's ability to feel pain, the fact that you are stopping a beating heart etc. Why do you need to wait until you are 6 months pregnant to make a decision?! I did see a chart that shows that most abortions are carried out between 9 and 12 weeks but there are still several thousand going ahead at much further stages of development and apparently in the UK the majority of abortions are for social reasons (90- something percent) as opposed to the medical reasons that you mentioned Loopy Lizzie.
I always wondered would increased information about baby development in schools maybe make a difference. I went to a Catholic school and watched awful videos of abortions being carried out and the the babies afterwards. This may be a bit extreme (although it certainly made an impact) but maybe people don;t realise how quickly a baby develops and what it is capable of at each stage. Maybe they don;t realise how early a baby can feel pain and how it shows fear when it is being aborted. Perhaps more education would help them to respect the life that is growing and moving inside them rather than just focussing on their 'woman's choice' and forgetting that it is actuallly a baby they are dealing with. Even if all it did was make people think more seriously about contraception - I find it hard to believe that all of these unwanted pregnancies are 'accidents' and I do believe that people have too casual an attitude to sex and don;t really think about the consequences of what they are doing. The woman's right to choose to have sex in the first place should mean that she is responsible enough to take proper precautions!
As far as rape goes, surely if women felt supported enough to come forward immediately, more could be done to eliminate the risk of an unwanted pregnancy. Maybe more awareness of rape support would be a good thing?
This is a very emotive topic and obviously I'm very anti-abortion and probably more so as I've gotten older. I think the recent loss of our own baby makes it even harder for me to understand all the women out there who choose to stop their baby's heart.
Skycurl - I understand what you are saying about guilt either way but surely in the case of adoption you would at least be able to console yourself that you gave your baby the life that you wouldn't have been able to - with a family who really wanted children and would really love them. Much better than having to live with the fact that you killed your baby….?
I totally totally believe that 24 wks is bloody ridiculous. Considering the results of amnio's come in so late and mean women only get the choice after 20 weeks the whole testing thing would have to be reconsidered.
As for abortion on the whole, I agree there is no point banning it - women will be back to sticking knitting needles up themselves and dying left right and centre. Women will do it, so it may as well be as safe and painless for mum and baby as possible.
As with lots of things I strongly agree with things from both sides so am neither anti or pro If that makes sense. It is a horrific thought, abortion. Not many women would take it lightly, and even if they do at the time it will generally seriously affect them for a long time. I know people who have had abortions who have been totally messed up at the time, depressed, or even in violent relationships where they have no choice over contraception :( but maybe able to get a morning after pill or whatever. And, a lot of young girls are stupid :( Or do stupid things, it is a fact.
But I do think abortion is too easy to obtain, and despite the claims I know that there is hardly any counselling involved. I think there should be more counselling so women know the options available to them, and can seriously consider the implications of them in order to make an informed decision.
All in all it is a really difficult topic, and in my heart I wish that there was more support and respect for mums so that it was seen as a viable option. Or maybe women were able to know that they could give their baby up for adoption but still be a part of their lives in some small way, maybe as an aunt type role iykwim.
I don't know, as with lots of things I sway from one side to the other like a line of washing
I am against abortion, it makes me sick to the stomach. Now this might come out as a load of waffle, but here goes…
I saw my baby's heart beating at 9weeks, and to me, if there's a heart beat, it's a life. And I know abortion is put across with the needs of the mother in mind, but what about the unborn child, it is just cast aside and thrown in the bin. I watched quite a disturbing programme about abortion and it showed abortions from 6 weeks up to 24 weeks, and the 24 week one was an actual fully formed baby, and it was just wrapped in a blanket and I don't know what they did with it after that. I think there was a 12 week abortion as well and to get it out of the mother's body they had to crush it and pull it out of her vagina, then they showed the remains, and there was tiny little hands and feet etc, it was just horrific. That is a tiny little baby they had just crushed to death. People who do it for a living are monsters.
I can understand women who get themselves into a situation and feel abortion is the only way out, but like others have said, it usually comes with regret. And I also agree that it shouldn't be made illegal because of the consequences of what people will do to get rid of their babies. I just don't like the thought of people thinking, oh I'm pregnant, lets get rid of it.
Another reason for my hatred of abortion, is that many women now opt for all these extra tests during pregnancy to test for downs and other things, and if they come back positive, they have an abortion. I know of people who've had the tests, then further tests and the baby has been okay so they've carried on with the pregnancy, but I look at those babies and think there was a chance that they wouldn't have made it into the world had they not been perfect. It is very sad.
Anyway, I cannot really put into words properly how I really feel, but it really upsets me. :(
It is good to hear some views on this. I really hoped the abortion limit would be reduced, I am not religious just a mum who had a premature baby and think that 24 weeks is too late for both the baby and the mother. I can't help thinking that our society is particularly anti-family in many respects, I found the lack of respect I got when heavily pregnant appalling and with the media bombarding us with the NHS maternity crisis, lack of health visitors, failures in education and families unable to cope financially I think the message is that becoming a parent in less than absolutely 'ideal' circumstances (whatever they are) is a disaster. I would like to see the abortion limit reduced, more support for parents from the day they discover the pregnancy and a more positive media approach to families and children. I think this would help to reduce the number of women feeling abortion is the only option which in turn would release pressure on the health system thereby allowing more time for earlier counselling and if necessary terminations. It would at least be a start rather than sticking with the status quo and watching it get worse. I also found some reporting about the debate really upsetting, My in-laws bought The Times (May 12th) which ran quite a pro-abortion article which featured a large picture of a prem baby, lines in and tubes all around. Notably the article didn't name the baby or give any acknowledgement of him/her which I thought was so disrespectful to the child and the family who probably went through hell, had an article pictured an elderly person in that state I suspect there would have been complaints but it seems babies deserve no acknowledgement.
Situations to do with abortion that I have come across:
One mum who was told at the 20 week scan that her baby was 'incompatible with life' - she chose to continue with the pregnancy and the baby died within minutes of the birth
Another mum who was told at the 20wk scan that her baby was 'incompatible with life' - she chose a late termination.
Another mum who was told at the 20wk scan that her baby would die within hours of birth - she chose to continue with the pregnancy and the baby is now 2 years old and although seriously disabled is a content and happy baby.
I would never judge any of these women because I couldn't even imagine the horror of being in this position, so have no way of knowing how I would decide the best course of action, bearing in mind the effect on my other children etc.
My nephew has Downs Syndrome and I find it devastating that people think it is perfectly Ok to have a 20wk+ abortion because the child has something like Downs Syndrome which for the majority of people is not incompatible with life.
And, nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that under the abortion laws as they stand at the moment women are able to have an abortion up to full term if "there is substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped". However, you may remember that a baby was aborted at 28 wks because it had a cleft lip and palate in 2001,now I find this truly shocking.
I once had a blazng row with someone who said that abortion was better than having an overcrowded planet….I said "Well, why not go round "culling" one year olds then??"
Somebody once said something similar to me (it was the MIL actually). She was marvelling at all the technology available these days and said that if it had been available many years ago, perhaps there wouldn't be so many disabled, 'imperfect' people around. I was horrified but I just didn't comment. I'm a bit backward when it comes to arguing with the MIL!
This thread has made me feel angry, sick, frustrated,and very sad at the society that we live with. >:(
My eldest dd is physically disabled, which was not detected until birth, and if i had known before would have made no difference….under no circumstances would I abort a life, that i had been given the priviledge to create.
During my following pregnancies I was offered scans to try and detect the problem in the other babies so that I could abort!
The medics thought they were offering me a great service…Rah!!!!!
I refused all scans.
How could I possibly kill a child with the same condition as my daughter already had, it makes me so angry that I am unable to express quite what i want to.
All my other children were born without dd1s condition, but knowing that we had a 1 in 4 chance in each pregnancy did make it hard…..but never would I have considered destroying them.
The time should be reduced and more education needs to be given to both sexes, so that they realises the situations they create do carry consequences.