[quote author=willowwarrior link=topic=1556.msg17676#msg17676 date=1212483157]
As far as I can see I am stating a fact when I say that killing an unborn baby is murder.
Isnt murder the ending of a life by someone else?
And no one has given me a satisfactory answer to why it is a "termination" before they are born, and why it would be murder at the same weeks gestation, if they had been born prematurely.

Murder is a legal definition and is defined by premeditation, people being in full charge of their faculties etc - I'm not a lawyer and don't know the precise definition. Depending on circumstances and the mental condition of the killer, killing another human being can be defined as manslaughter rather than murder. A termination or abortion is again a technical term that defines the killling of an embryo or fetus rather than a baby. The law has to define things and obviously we pick up on the language. The point at which a fetus becomes a baby depends on the individual fetus/baby in question doesn't it - babies are born at different weeks gestation? I don't find this difficult The law has to work on the basis of what is most likely. A baby  born at 24 weeks is extremely unlikely to survive and will only survive thanks to a lot of technical intervention - and as recent research has shown there has been no improvement in life chances at 24 weeks despite improved care and technical expertise.

Hello,
I have a really wanted child. I'm 43. I love her dearly.

I had an abortion years ago at 19 years of age. I didn't expect to become pregnant
and do not think I was in a position to look after a child. I was really really struggling and honestly
believe if I had that child we would not have survived.

So, yes - the current limits seems excessive. But I can imagine lots of situations where young
women out of not knowing, only very late on realise they are pregnant.
I am an old school feminist for very good reason and believe that no one has a right to take
ownership of a woman's body.
w.w.

Actually, correction, I'm 44 - I forgot!
w.w.

By ''taking ownership' of course I mean politically or personally telling a woman what she should
do with her body. Fascism we know about.
w.w.

I agree ww, thats absolutely right and thats the crucial issue for me, whatever anyone may think about abortion/termination and at what stage it should or shouldn't be allowed ultimately it is the womans right to choose and as far as i'm concerned this right needs to be protected, nobody has the right to take this away and decide what happens in that womans body.

Lucy

thanks very much Lucy
w.w.

I agree with Queenie.  Thanks for being able to share your experience with us WW.  

I will always defend the choice of the woman in this issue.  It's the woman who has to carry the child, and although fathers promise to be there, if they change their mind, it's the woman who will be left to cope.  Yes there are those who would say, well adoption is another option but there are so many children waiting for adoption, that it's not the magical solution.

I personally can't think of a situation where I would have an abortion (easy to say now when it's not something I have to deal with) but who knows what will happen in the future but it's the woman's right to have the choice and no one should make her feel guilty for that decision.  It's too easy to judge women but until you've been in that particular woman's situation, people have no right to judge her.  What's the saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

..

Thanks too everyone, I hope we can all continue to share such useful discussions.
w.w.

From page 1 of this discussion I wanted to put my experience into the discussion, and very much appreciate that ww put her experience forward.
I had a termination when I was 18 and although the situation was not ideal I would have kept the pregnancy but I was a very careful 18 year old and was on the pill and used condoms, even though I was in a long term relationship that had just ended as I found out I was pregnant. Anyway the condom broke and to be trebly sure I also had the morning after pill. 
Because of this I was told a baby would not have survived/ been born with both sets of genitals/ been severly disabled because of the amount of hormones in my body (not todays current thinking).  But at the end of the day it was my decision and I was lucky to have counselling.
I now have a beautiful baby girl and although I have bad feelings about what happened I do not regret my decision earlier in my life. This is a very emotive subject and sometimes although you can debate you have to agree to disagree.  I am proud to say I am pro-choice, it is not pro-abortion but the womans right to choose.

Thanks Sarie, somehow I've only just read this myself. A real life experience helps to put abstract debates into focus. As you say Being pro-choice is not pro-abortion (as if anyone would be pro-abortion!), but gives women the option to make the best choice for them and their family in imperfect circumstances. I never understand why young people who have abortions are sometimes painted as irresponsible when in fact they are often demonstraing their maturity and sense of responsibility.

I think I have to disagree with a few things:

Firstly I don;t see how you can separate being pro-choice and pro-abortion.  Being pro-choice means that you support the idea of a woman having an abortion which is pro-abortion.  I think trying to separate them may be sitting on the fence a bit to be honest..

Secondly I think saying that choosing abortion shows maturity and a sense of responsibility undermines the decision of those who choose to keep their baby despite the difficult circumstances.  To me that is showing true responsibility - accepting the consequences of your actions and changing your life to accomodate them.  My friend was 18 when she found out she was pregnant and she'd only been with her boyfriend (an american) for a couple of months.  Despite being on the pill and using a condom she got pregnant.  The guy decided that he wasn't ready to be a dad and stayed in america and left her here.  She hadn;t finished her education but she got a job in a cafe and paid for her flat and her daughter's child minder and gradually worked her way up to management.  She is now in the tech finishing her a-levels and she is going to university next year.  She also has a very beautiful, happy, healthy 7 y.o daughter.  The situation was definitely not right or easy for her nor for many other mums (teenagers or otherwise) but they choose to change and work their life around and deal with the situation rather than 'getting rid of it'.  I don't really see how having an abortion shows anywhere near the maturity or responsibility of these women…

I realise that people have been very honest and have shared their experiences on here and that this may hit a few sore spots but we obviously all have different opinions and experiences and this is the debate section after all!

Secondly I think saying that choosing abortion shows maturity and a sense of responsibility undermines the decision of those who choose to keep their baby despite the difficult circumstances.  To me that is showing true responsibility

I disagree here.  What is a sensible mature decision for one person could be a silly mistake for someone else, whatever that decision is - as their personalities and situations are totally different.  I don't think you can generalise that someone is mature and responsible if they choose X but not Y.  It's different for everyone, I think.

I agree that to be pro-choice must be to endorse abortion.  I don't like abortion one little bit, and wish it were never needed but the alternatives to legal abortion are too hideous to consider.

Becky
x

By endorse I mean accept, as I don't think anyone would be 'pro' abortion as in positively promoting it.

Becky
xx

Hi Becky,

In what situation would you consider that an abortion is a mature and responsible decision? (I'm not having a go at you here - just wondering!)  I think that people who are able to adapt and accommodate a baby into their lives even when it was not ideal do show maturity and responsibility.  Equally someone who realises that they may not be able to give the baby a good life and decides to put them up for adoption has made a mature decision and has shown responsibility towards the care of the child.  I don't really see how getting rid of a baby shows responsibility - to me it rather shows a reluctance to accept responsibility - easier to get rid of the problem. If people aren't mature enough or in a situation to cope with the possibility that sex may result in a baby then they really just shouldn't be having sex - wouldn't that show even more maturity and responsibility?

Regarding legal abortion - did anyone see that the recent article about the embryo bill?  There are other issues going up for debate including not having to take abortion drugs under medical supervision!!! I presume that this would be for women at a very early stage of pregnancy but surely even early stage miscarriages can be dangerous?..It seems like another step in the wrong direction…