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Don’t think I’ll be a Green Parent any more :)  In a manner of speaking….
Posted: 07 April 2011 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]  
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I understand why some were deleted (having followed what happened), but mine was deleted and it was nothing to do with Jez’s mix-up. Did I say something wrong, or should I repost what I said?

Angie

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Posted: 07 April 2011 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]  
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I would repost, Angie - I’d assume that if you had said anything that bad you would have been PMed about it?  Assume it’s a mistake.  I’m betting you didn’t insult anyone.  :lol

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Sarah
Living, loving, learning, laughing, growing, with
7yo Jenna (August 04)
5yo Morgan (December 06)
2yo Rowan (April 09)
and Talia (December 11)

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GP LETS number 17

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Posted: 07 April 2011 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]  
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Doh! please can we move on, I deleted the post because we lost the thread (and it removed everything inbetween for some reason?? sorry) and now we’re losing it again confused

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Posted: 07 April 2011 07:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]  
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please re-post Angie!

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Posted: 07 April 2011 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]  
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Jez, don’t worry about it, no criticism intended.  smile

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Sarah
Living, loving, learning, laughing, growing, with
7yo Jenna (August 04)
5yo Morgan (December 06)
2yo Rowan (April 09)
and Talia (December 11)

http://www.carried-family.blogspot.com

GP LETS number 17

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Posted: 07 April 2011 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]  
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Hmmm, odd! Repost Angie, you didn’t say anything offensive and I’m quite sure I read everything.

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Posted: 07 April 2011 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]  
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Hullo. This is my first message on the GP forum so if I say something too outrageous or inappropriate then please someone gently let me know.

I studied Astrophysics at St. Andrew’s University and have no doubt in my mind that climate change is real. Global warming is part of that theory and the question that has been asked for over forty years is whether or not it is driven by human beings. The notion that all science that says that global warming (or global heating to use Monbiot’s more accurate term) is human in origin is government-funded and therefore biased just isn’t borne out by the evidence of how much scientific research takes place. Of course there are governmentally-funded projects but, as someone else mentioned, there is also oil-company driven research. Most of the research in between is neither and that overwhelmingly points to the fact that it is “very likely” (90%) that global heating is caused by human emissions. I like to think of it like this. If one person on TV tells me the weather today is a 90% chance of rain, I’ll almost certainly take an umbrella. If literally tens of thousands of scientists from all around the world all in completely differing but related fields, including those scientists with accurately tested computer models, say that there’s a 90% chance of rain, I’m definitely taking an umbrella! This is the same with climate change and in particular with global heating.

The idea that it’s a con is far more convenient and easier to swallow than the idea that we’re to blame, I think. Honestly, most governments couldn’t organise a you-know-what in a brewery… do we really think that all the governments around the world could then mutually co-ordinate a global scientific con? And, if they did in order to tax us, how come when they meet every year they can’t even agree on a simple process in which to tax all the people through some kind of carbon-tax mechanism? If it were a con, why are governments around the world so unbelievably bad at taking this agenda forward? Why were they last to respond to this, not the first? Isn’t it more likely that (a) our governments live with short-term re-electable aims in mind and that they know that a carbon tax is an election loser so they’re less likely to want to push a carbon agenda than we are and (b) a guy who talks about science from behind a balaclava is probably not the most reliable source of information on the complex mechanisms of the Earth’s atmosphere and associated heating patterns involved therein! I’d like to see what scientific papers he’s published on the topic!

The question is not about natural cycles but about the speed of the cycles and how we are utterly beyond any sense of natural cycle now. This is borne out most clearly in the current extinction crisis that is clearly the most rapid that our planet has ever faced. That alone is evidence that we’ve gone way beyond any discussion of natural cycles, in my mind.

As a former Astrophysicist, I would like to quickly respond to a couple of comments about science and scientific debate. Science is about consensus but it’s also about falsification (as Karl Popper once described). If a theory doesn’t stand up to rigorous testing, it is either changed or even abandoned - this is falsification. Having read a fair chunk of the actual scientific evidence on this matter (i.e. the actual papers not the media presentation of them), there is no doubt in my mind that the more research that takes place in terms of the causes of global heating, the more refined the theory becomes and the more evidence there is to support it. Whenever an alternate theory is posed (e.g. “it’s the fault of the Sun”), it is rigorously tested and still found wanting, not because of some secret con but because the numbers simply don’t add up. For some reason which I still don’t quite understand, though, the media has turned it into a debate. But when did we debate any other aspects of science? I don’t remember watching Newsnight and having a scientist explain electricity and someone who isn’t from a scientific background say, “Actually, it’s not about electrons, it’s about little pixies in wires” for the presenter to say “Well, an interesting balanced debate”!!! Scientific debate needs to take place in scientific circles and when it does on global heating the evidence is overwhelming - it’s just inaccessible to the general public. But at the same time no scientist has the right to be dogmatic and say “It is absolutely proven” because the nature of science means that it could be disproven. But when the thousands of scientific papers from around the world are essentially disproven by a Youtube video from a balaclavad nobody, I do worry about the role of honest scientific research in our society.

Yes, I’ll happily pay a carbon tax, yes, I do believe that there are bad scientists who argue both for and against human-induced climate change but, no, I will not believe one anonymous man whose agenda and scientific background are impossible to determine against the overwhelming array of actual evidence that is gathered every year from good scientists that suggest that unless we utterly change society right now then literally millions of people will die and half the species on our planet will go extinct. I’d rather take the precautionary principle mentioned by someone else and trust the experts in the field, not the masked man with a website, a publisher and a chip on his shoulder.

Well done to you for raising this, though, because once again I believe it shows the biggest failings of the scientific community today are (a) an inability to explain why human-induced global heating is as obvious as the Big Bang (still a theory but an almost… almost… undeniable one) and (b) allowing themselves to get dragged into debate as opposed to producing accessible proofs.

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If you’re interested in faith and the environment, feel free to look at http://www.eco-faith.org - the website of our Dorset-based interfaith environmental group, or follow my blog - “A Bit of Bible, Baby and Biodiversity” at http://www.rabbineil.com.

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Posted: 08 April 2011 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]  
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Great post SmilerDad - totally agree with you! I think your last point is really important. I don’t really understand why scientific debate gets so mangled in the public arena - its as easy to blame ‘the media’ as it is to blame ‘politicians’ but both positions are pretty lazy in my opinion. I suspect you are right that scientists themselves have to take a fair bit of the blame.

As far as climate change is concerned I guess its partly because its such a huge huge issue that its quite difficult to get your head around and things like emisions leading to depletion of the ozone layer are quite difficult to actually see by us on the ground and therefore causation seems intangible. I find it helpful to start on a micro level. If human beings cut down trees it leads to depletion of nutrients, instability and sometimes landslides. I don’t think this is an example of the arrogance of human beings to say that human activity has directly led to environmental change in this very tangible example. Seeing things like this all around me its not such a leap to accept the evidence that experienced scientists provide (robustly argued and peer reviewed) that other forms of human activity are leading to environmental change and global heating.

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Posted: 08 April 2011 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]  
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Interesting reading, thankyou!

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Sarah
Living, loving, learning, laughing, growing, with
7yo Jenna (August 04)
5yo Morgan (December 06)
2yo Rowan (April 09)
and Talia (December 11)

http://www.carried-family.blogspot.com

GP LETS number 17

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Posted: 08 April 2011 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]  
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Really interesting debate, not feeling very well or eloquent today but really enjoyed reading everyones views.  Thanks for the info Mamauk.In short I try to live as harmoniously with the planet and nature as possible because it agree’s with my own common sense, regardless of who or what is to blame for global warming.  If tomorrow it was all over the front pages of the papers that global warming is nothing to do with humans and a full gone conclusion in terms of the planets phases, future and fate I would still continue to live as green and as consideratly as I could.

Much love X

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Posted: 08 April 2011 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]  
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That’s an honourable position and from a personal perspective I agree - it wouldn’t make any difference to me either. However, if we take the line that climate change is not caused by human activity then it would be an equally honourable position to say that it didn’t matter what human beings did - which would mean no incentive for governments to promote responsible green policies or people/companies to behave responsibly. So I think it does matter that people take the research seriously and act accordingly, otherwise we end up potentially in a very complacent and dangerous place.

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Posted: 08 April 2011 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]  
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But I’m not sure if climate change is the only - or even the major - reason why things need to change?  The depletion of petrochemicals is an urgent enough issue, even if self-preservation is the only concern of the majority (well, certainly I suspect it’s the only concern that would influence government!) we still can’t afford to keep burning fuels and we need alternatives…  Even those who consider themselves not to care about green issues are going to have to care some time soon.  I suppose it depends on how far we truly are off Peak Oil?

From the POV of wanting to know things, I care whether or not climate change is manmade.  From the POV of practicality, I care more that any messages out there from the denials camp still focus on all the things we still *need* to do regardless of what is causing climate change, because the earth still matters and because we’re still heading for a great number of other environmental crisis points…

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Sarah
Living, loving, learning, laughing, growing, with
7yo Jenna (August 04)
5yo Morgan (December 06)
2yo Rowan (April 09)
and Talia (December 11)

http://www.carried-family.blogspot.com

GP LETS number 17

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Posted: 08 April 2011 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]  
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I think they are all linked aren’t they? I have never even considered whether climate change is the major reason for changing the way we relate to the earth - its one of several that are all important. As with any movement for change you focus son the issue that is most likely to lead to change depending on your constituency. So for people who only care about money you convince them how much it is going to cost them to pay for the effects of climate change. For peolpe that care about biodiversity you show them how many species will die etc etc. You only ever influence people by referring to things they care about. The issue of man-made climate change is directly related to peak oil because it affects what decisions we will make on the alternative.

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Posted: 11 April 2011 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]  
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What a good debate!  So good to read the responses and opinions.  Not sure what my views are any longer.  Perhaps that book was not so ‘life changing ’ after all smile  As far as I I see the wars caused and pollution and greed over petrochemicals are reasons enough to cut their uses. 

I like what Maysmum just said:
‘I have never even considered whether climate change is the major reason for changing the way we relate to the earth - its one of several that are all important.’

Up until now me either, and I think this sentence is so true for me still, and is probably the way I’ll continue to relate to the earth.  I have always always felt that I ought to try and leave the earth in a better state for my children and theirs in turn, like everyone else here is dedicated to also smile  Lofty aspirations, but still valid and achievable nevertheless.

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