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I don’t know how aware you are of the recent guilty charge of Ian Watkins from the band LostProphets, of several awful, awful charges involving heinous abuse of VERY young children. I won’t go into details, but they are out there if people are interested.

I am not in anyway defending what he did, as it is abhorrent.

But, my point is:

At what point does an artist’s actions in their personal life negate their contribution to their craft?

So many people have said that they will never listen to the band LostProphets again because of what the lead singer has done.

But where is that line drawn? If it came out that Kate Rusby had been fraudulently avoiding paying her taxes (which she wouldn’t because she is just divine!), we wouldn’t stop listening to her music, would we? That exact thing didn’t damage Jimmy Carr’s comedy career.

Nigella Lawson’s alleged cocaine addiction. Are we going to never bake any of her recipes ever again because we are against recreational drug usage?

Further back, Angus Deaton’s apparent involvement with drugs and prostitutes.

Robert Downey Junior’s drug problems, LOOK at him now!

Gary Glitter.

R Kelly.

Chris Brown beat up Rihanna and several radio stations refused to play his music, but he’s STILL got an enormous following and wasn’t dropped by his label.

Several NBA stars have been suspected of/found guilty of rape, and yet still have careers.

And more specifically relating to child abuse, Michael Jackson. We still listen to his music, it’s regularly played on the radio. Or is it that they were never conclusively proven, therefore it doesn’t count?


If we found out that Da Vinci had been regularly having sex with very young children, would there be an outcry to get the Mona Lisa removed from public viewing?

And, does your own personal ‘involvement’ with the band or person make it worse, more shocking? The generation of people that were teenagers when LostProphets were at the height of their career are now… well… me. They’re mid-late 20-somethings, often with young children. When you’re famous, in the public eye, you are almost ‘owned’ by your fans, so you feel like you *know* these people, which makes the betrayal almost personal.

Example; If it had been Bruce Dickinson (lead singer of Iron Maiden, band from a different generational era) that had been found guilty of this, it would be a different demographic of people that were shocked. I mean, we’d ALL be shocked, but ESPECIALLY those who grew up with their music in their formative years.

And would it be different if it had been someone OTHER than the front man of LostProphets? What if it had been a lesser-known guitarist? Would it be more ‘ok’ to play their music then?

How far does someone have to go before their contribution is considered null and void?

Blue-haired crunchy Mama to Ru (5 yrs), Pixie Willow (3 years) and Baby Gaia (7 months).

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I have never heard of the band or the artist in question, but I do think people view child abuse in a very different light than other crimes such as tax evasion, drug abuse and possibly even prostitution.  For me personally listening to the music would be a reminder of the horrific crime, so yes I can understand why people make blanket statements about boycotting the band etc. 

If anyone knows the phonics site Starfall, its owner/creator is a convicted paedophile and when that news came out many people said they would stop using it (it is a free site) as they did not want to financially benefit a paedophile (I assume he maybe got money per clicks or something) and they felt sick even just looking at the site.  It is up to them as to what their own comfort zone is I feel.

I personally would find it difficult to find any redeeming features about a convicted paedophile; any good work they had done or talents they possessed would be nullified for me.

Muslim mum of four, home educating, environmental hypocrite (but doing my best) hodge podging through this life…..

Generally I think paedophilia is considered the “worst” crime, but I know what you are saying. Can we only like art / music / books / etc by “nice” people?
Personally I think Gary Glitter made great seventies disco tunes. I don’t feel bad listening to them.

As far as the Lost Prophets go I think it is really hard on the rest of the band that their future royalties etc will be incredibly damaged by the sick actions of their lead man.

Yummy Mummy of 3 children and 4 chickens and a greyhound who would like to be greener.
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LETS 105

Hmmm, I have, unfortunately, read the article about what he did - truly horrific.
If the memories of what he did make listening to his music unpleasurable then it’s not worth listening too. Maybe it would be a short lived boycott until the memory had faded. Although many people might switch off for a while, many will not. I see it that people are making clear their position on it and it’s a mark of respect to the victims, not that those who choose to listen are saying the opposite though.
I think that most of the other people you mentioned, with the exception of GG, they were much lessor crimes. None of them are acceptable, though in the land of celebrities some seem more acceptable than others.

I don’t think anyone’s contributions would ever be completely null and void. There will always be people who haven’t heard x, y and z or have old books/cd’s etc and in time people forget or don’t know who they’re listening too.

If I know of a celebrity that has dome something I don’t personally like or approve of, I can find it difficult to enjoy what they have produced (this is mainly in films though) as I’m thinking of what I know of them as a person!

x

Little Miss 2007 Mr Moo 2011

GP Lets number 67

I think this type of crime is particularly abhorrent as it an offense against a person and a child at that.  And that is why people won’t be able to listen to the music. If I ever hear a gary glitter song it just brings to mind little Vietnamese girls and what he might have done to them so how can the music be enjoyable when it is associated with such behaviour and images?

I haven’t heard a Gary Glitter song played publically since his conviction, and I know that the BBC are not showing archive TOTP episodes fronted by Jimmy Saville. I think that when someone has committed a serious crime like child abuse or murder, their art will be taken out of public circulation by the media - obviously that doesn’t affect what people do in their homes, but over the years it will obviously become less popular as it isn’t played so much.

Having said that, Elvis lived with a 14 year old and Little Richard married a 13 year old. We still listen to and love their music, despite the fact that by today’s standards they were quite clearly peadophiles.

I (frankly) don’t care about people’s personal drug abuse if it isn’t affecting what they do, so Nigella’s alleged cocaine habit (which is actually a pretty shaky allegation anyway) doesn’t bother me at all. I am stunned, to be honest, that losing a mother and a sister to early onset breast cancer, a husband to mouth cancer and living through a ten year abusive marriage, she has ended up as stable as she appears to be - I’d be surprised if she *wasn’t* doing something to take the edge of all that tragedy.

Tax evasion and prostitutes - well, both Angus Deyton and Jimmy Carr ‘fessed up and took the ribbing, which seems to make them acceptable again - I think that’s the way to handle it if you are in the public eye and caught in some minor crime or misdeamenor. Again, it wouldn’t make me stop watching them (for free on TV - I wouldn’t pay to see them - or any other comic really).

Angie

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On a bit of an aside… I can’t believe the amount of the detail the newspapers online article went into and was thinking of complaining… There’s reporting a story and then there totally going too far in the detail of what happened.

Denise
Xxxx

It personally would put me off the music forever as it would remind me. So no I wouldn’t listen to his music even if I had liked it before (which I didn’t!).
I believe Michael Jackson was innocent of the child abuse (however weird he might otherwise be, not denying that!), and I still love to listen to his music. It is my personal belief he was taken advantage of for his money and unfairly treated but I know a lot of people who wouldn’t agree with me on that one.
As for fraud etc, it wouldn’t put me off listening to a fraudster’s music or books etc, as in my eyes it’s not exactly up there with heinous abhorrent crimes, like disgusting crimes against children. Drug abuse and prostitutes too - personal life, not exactly hideous crimes. Hugh Grant’s one of my favourite actors and he was famously caught with a prostitute!

So it all comes down to how YOU personally feel about the crime they committed? Is that the crux of the matter?

Blue-haired crunchy Mama to Ru (5 yrs), Pixie Willow (3 years) and Baby Gaia (7 months).

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I read this thread a few days ago and have been contemplating it since. I also grew up when Lost Prophets were trendy, amd though I hated their music (I was more of a Deftones kinda girl!) I had friends and a boyfriend at the time who loved them. So i see what you are saying Mamapixie. However, for me, even if i DID like LP, I would not be able to listen to their music now following these absolutely disgusting facts. I honestly feel that child abuse is a crime that is far too emotional and emotive and is up there for me as something totally inexcusable and listening to the music of someone convicted of something so horrific really would be a reminder of their crimes. Any ‘geniusness’ of the music would have come partly or solely from that same person capable of commiting such things (I dont actually know if Lost Pro[hets wrote their own music but you get the point im making)

Things like tax evasion infuriate me but that is politics and gets my socialist head on.

Prostitution is a grey area for me…it is 2 consenting adults ultimately. i know there are thousands of issues surrounding why a woman decides to turn to prostitution, sexual abuse as a child being a big factor, however it feels very different to know someone in the public eye that you admire has been caught with a prostitue to that person convicted of pretty horrific child abuse.

I dont know…i think i DO feel that this is the ‘worst’ thing someone can do (if its measured like that which of course it isnt!!)

ETA: i now feel that the point i made about prostitution isnt necessarily valid because it isnt ALWAYS 2 CONSENTING adults and im not making light of what pushs a lot of women into prostitution by any means. I feel this country has very wrong laws on this anyway as there is no way of monitoring and caring for these women. but anyway…with all that said and done…i still stand by child absue being the ABSOLUTE bottom

I know exactly what you mean!  I actually liked Lost prophets and found him attractive, the thought now makes me sick, the music brings up the thought of what I have read about him.

I think it’s wholly a personally thing, some people can separate who someone is and music, film, business, etc in their brains easier than others.

I am happy that the radio stations don’t play it, my friends don’t either.

sarie

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it was loaned to you by your children.
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
we borrow it from our Children.

LETS number 64

Coming into this late…. it’s a really interesting question, and I think that MamaPixie’s second point is what it seems to hinge on.  It seems to be about our personal opinion of the crimes in question.

My opinion is such that I don’t think crime fo any kind is ever black and white, so Gem’s point about prostitution made me think.  For me, prostitution is not a ‘crime’ as such (I know the law views it differently), but the actions of the (usually) men who co-ordinate and manage prostitution?  That is irreprehensible.  The media rarely goes into any detail about the women involved, the way they do the celebrity, and prostitution is so locked into human trafficking, forcible prostitution and violence against women.  Also there’s the drug thing.  That too is a chain of events.  Follow the supply chain back and the violence, control and abuse of men, women and children only increases.  Tax evasion, I agree, is more a political issue.  But we are still under a government who are turning the vulnerable and disabled out of their homes, making them choose whether to be cold or hungry, while millionaires find tax loopholes and sit there laughing at the whole abominable situation.  I’m not sure this is any less criminal, it is still the abuse of a vulnerable human being.
So as a result I try to avoid, wherever possible, star-rating crimes.  There is to me, no ‘worst’ crime.  Nothing is ever so black and white.  I also don’t buy into the frantic, headline-lust that the tabloid press infect us with if I can avoid it…they seem to enjoy it just a little bit too much, plus it brings out the self-righteousness that only an hour with the Mail can do in even the most hardened liberal.

Anyway, personally, I was quite a trendy creature in a former life…. I was involved, in the loosest sense, in the alternative music scene from the very early nineties up to about 2003 as a hanger-on type.  As a result I had cause to meet Ian watkins a couple of times.  This was maybe 2002-ish?  ‘The Last Train Home’ had just come out, and was all over the radio, so please correct me if my memory failed on the year….. I remember fancying the living bejeesus out of him, the memory of which is making me feel slightly ill, and weirdly violated now.  I saw the photo the press published last week and I don’t even recognise that man there.  Whoever he is now I can’t think what happened to him and I can only assume it’s chemical related, which is odd, as that band were VERY straight 15 years ago.  It seems odd to think that beautiful young man had something so terrible lurking in his subconscious, and that makes it more shocking somehow.  Jimmy Saville always gave me the creeps.  I think the whole scenario with him is ‘worse’ if you could call it that, as it was on such an enormous scale and went on for so long.  Also the wider implications… guest house, high profile politicians, police cover-up etc etc.  But anyway….

Music-wise? ‘Last Train Home’ is a song I have vivid memories of very happy times in my life associated with.  Those memories are mine, and remain uncorrupted by the crimes of the author.  That song doesn’t make me think of child abuse, it makes me think of events in my life.  That memory is more powerful.  And thus it shall remain.  I don’t have th CD on my rack, I wouldn’t seek it out.  But if I ever have cause to hear it on the radio again it shall make me think of hanging out backstage with Beck at Reading Festival in 2003, and I shall smile to myself.  Maybe their music is easier to shun if it means nothing to you personally.  After all, music has the power to make you re-live things long forgotten.  The opening bars of The Moody Blues ‘Lovely to See You Again’, take me to Morocco in 1977, as vividly as if it was last week.  That itself is a beautiful thing.  Plus music is art, and I don’t believe that art should be destroyed for the wont of it’s artist.

I think the lack of radio play is probably an act of diplomacy and probably won’t last forever, though it is rare to hear a Gary Glitter song played now I think?  That said, I do you remember when Pete Townshend was accused of paedophilia, for possessing child pornography?  Did anyone pull The Who’s records?  Or stop listening to them?  Think not….. Or maybe they did?

I’m sure I will be universally, accross the board disagreed with here.  But if debate is the order of the day, this is my opinion.  I mean no offence to anyone. X

ProvencalMama - 05 December 2013 05:55 PM

Coming into this late…. it’s a really interesting question, and I think that MamaPixie’s second point is what it seems to hinge on.  It seems to be about our personal opinion of the crimes in question.

My opinion is such that I don’t think crime fo any kind is ever black and white, so Gem’s point about prostitution made me think.  For me, prostitution is not a ‘crime’ as such (I know the law views it differently), but the actions of the (usually) men who co-ordinate and manage prostitution?  That is irreprehensible.  The media rarely goes into any detail about the women involved, the way they do the celebrity, and prostitution is so locked into human trafficking, forcible prostitution and violence against women.  Also there’s the drug thing.  That too is a chain of events.  Follow the supply chain back and the violence, control and abuse of men, women and children only increases.  Tax evasion, I agree, is more a political issue.  But we are still under a government who are turning the vulnerable and disabled out of their homes, making them choose whether to be cold or hungry, while millionaires find tax loopholes and sit there laughing at the whole abominable situation.  I’m not sure this is any less criminal, it is still the abuse of a vulnerable human being.
So as a result I try to avoid, wherever possible, star-rating crimes.  There is to me, no ‘worst’ crime.  Nothing is ever so black and white.  I also don’t buy into the frantic, headline-lust that the tabloid press infect us with if I can avoid it…they seem to enjoy it just a little bit too much, plus it brings out the self-righteousness that only an hour with the Mail can do in even the most hardened liberal.

Anyway, personally, I was quite a trendy creature in a former life…. I was involved, in the loosest sense, in the alternative music scene from the very early nineties up to about 2003 as a hanger-on type.  As a result I had cause to meet Ian watkins a couple of times.  This was maybe 2002-ish?  ‘The Last Train Home’ had just come out, and was all over the radio, so please correct me if my memory failed on the year….. I remember fancying the living bejeesus out of him, the memory of which is making me feel slightly ill, and weirdly violated now.  I saw the photo the press published last week and I don’t even recognise that man there.  Whoever he is now I can’t think what happened to him and I can only assume it’s chemical related, which is odd, as that band were VERY straight 15 years ago.  It seems odd to think that beautiful young man had something so terrible lurking in his subconscious, and that makes it more shocking somehow.  Jimmy Saville always gave me the creeps.  I think the whole scenario with him is ‘worse’ if you could call it that, as it was on such an enormous scale and went on for so long.  Also the wider implications… guest house, high profile politicians, police cover-up etc etc.  But anyway….

Music-wise? ‘Last Train Home’ is a song I have vivid memories of very happy times in my life associated with.  Those memories are mine, and remain uncorrupted by the crimes of the author.  That song doesn’t make me think of child abuse, it makes me think of events in my life.  That memory is more powerful.  And thus it shall remain.  I don’t have th CD on my rack, I wouldn’t seek it out.  But if I ever have cause to hear it on the radio again it shall make me think of hanging out backstage with Beck at Reading Festival in 2003, and I shall smile to myself.  Maybe their music is easier to shun if it means nothing to you personally.  After all, music has the power to make you re-live things long forgotten.  The opening bars of The Moody Blues ‘Lovely to See You Again’, take me to Morocco in 1977, as vividly as if it was last week.  That itself is a beautiful thing.  Plus music is art, and I don’t believe that art should be destroyed for the wont of it’s artist.

I think the lack of radio play is probably an act of diplomacy and probably won’t last forever, though it is rare to hear a Gary Glitter song played now I think?  That said, I do you remember when Pete Townshend was accused of paedophilia, for possessing child pornography?  Did anyone pull The Who’s records?  Or stop listening to them?  Think not….. Or maybe they did?

I’m sure I will be universally, accross the board disagreed with here.  But if debate is the order of the day, this is my opinion.  I mean no offence to anyone. X

just to make clear…my thoughts on prostituiton were not clearly expressed here and i had to edit my response as i felt i had gotten myself in a muddle. and i think its quite clear from what i was saying that prostitution is a long series of events which vary and like i said what pushes women into this life (a big factor being sexual abuse as a child).

as for their music being easier to shun off it it wasnt something personal to you…i dont agree with that. I dont like LP but as i said i was surrounded by people that did and their music at one point was a big part of my social crowd and i have a LOT of fond memeories from that time. And if something like this had been discovered about someone i did actually like, i can be rested assured my feelings would be exactly the same.

i do not believe in star ‘rating crimes either…thats crazy as i dont think anyone here is star rating any crimes, just talking openly about what to them individually feels totally wrong. and tax evasion for example is incredibly wrong to me, as a socialist, however child abuse is something quite different.

I feel in this case Ian Watkins has abused his position of being successful to fulfil his own perversions…BUT…out of this entire story….for me the worst bit of all is the 2 women, the ‘superfans’, the MOTHERS who abused their own children and made them avalible.

also having worked in the music industry myself, i also view music as art and my music tastes vary massively (usually anything awkward listening will do!) but…i stand by everything i have said on this matter

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